2015/01/01 by Marlin E. Rice · 4 citations
Biochemistry, Genetics and Molecular Biology · Environmental Science · Agricultural and Biological Sciences · #Lepidoptera: Biology and Taxonomy #Forest Insect Ecology and Management #Forest Ecology and Biodiversity Studies #Club #Art history #Archaeology #History #Biology
paper · pdf · doi:10.1093/ae/tmv002
published in American Entomologist 61(1), 9-15 (Oxford University Press)
openalex publication_date 2015/01/01 · openalex created_date 2025/10/10 · openalex updated_date 2026/07/29
Marlin E. Rice is a research manager with DuPont Pioneer in Johnston, Iowa. He is a past President and Fellow of the Entomological Society of America. Terry L. Erwin is Curator of Coleoptera at the Smithsonian Institution, National Museum of Natural History, in Washington, D.C. and editor-in-chief of ZooKeys. He generated significant controversy in 1982—which continues to this day—when he published an estimate of 30 million species on Earth, which was substantially more than the nearly one million described species. He was born 1 December 1940 in St. Helena, California and spent his youth trout fishing with his maternal grandfather in the High Sierra near Lake Tahoe. As a teenager, with prodding from his father, he built hot rod cars and was a founding member and later President of the California Conquistadores, a hot rod club in the San Francisco Bay area. Erwin earned his B.S. (1964, Biology) and M.A. (1966, Biology) degrees from San Jose State College. With a desire to learn from the three greatest living carabidologists, he first obtained a Ph.D. (1969, Entomology) from University of Alberta under the direction of George Ball. This was followed by a post-doctoral fellowship at Harvard University's Museum of Comparative Zoology with Philip J. Darlington, Jr. During that year, a position opened at the (then) United States National Museum in the Department of Entomology, which he accepted, but two months after taking the job, he departed for a year-long sabbatical at Lund University in Sweden, where he completed the carabidology “trifecta” under the mentorship of Carl H. Lindroth. While in Sweden, the Chairman of Entomology at the USNM changed from Karl Krombien to Paul D. Hurd, who saw on his desk a proposal left by Terry to study California carabid beetles. Learning that grant money was available for research in Central America, Hurd crossed out “California” and wrote in “Panama.” Terry returned to Washington in 1971, as the second coleopterist within the USNM, and was greatly surprised to find that his proposal had been changed, funding had been secured, and he was scheduled for the next flight to the Canal Zone. Thus began a lifetime career on studies of insect biodiversity in neotropical forests. Terry Erwin, senior, Vallejo Senior High School, 1958. This interview began in Austin, Texas on 13 November 2013 with The Macallan 18 (a single malt scotch) and a toast “to all things on six legs.” It concluded in Portland, Oregon on 17 November 2014; Erwin was two weeks short of 74 years old. Rice: What I want to do, Terry, is interview you for a new column in American Entomologist called Legends. And I'll do this column for five years, or until I run out of energy. Erwin: [Laughs.] This column is a good idea; an excellent idea for ESA. You are still active in biodiversity and conservation, but I really wanted to narrow this down and look at the entomological aspects and to communicate to entomologists broadly, so some of these questions will be elementary, but some will be philosophical and you just run with it any way you want. Okay. Who is the person, or what was the event, that motivated you to study entomology? Those are always great questions, and I know there are just all kinds of diverse answers you get from everybody, but probably mine is kind of like a common one, and that is J. Gordon Edwards. He was a professor at San Jose State College; it was college then and not university, ‘cause this was back in the 60s. My father was a race driver—a tin knocker—and he didn't finish high school, and when he retired from Mare Island Naval Shipyard, he was a nuclear engineer building atomic submarines, and that was my path. My grandfather worked at Mare Island, my father worked at Mare Island, my mother, my uncle. Vallejo was a very small town, so that was it. You grew up and worked at Mare Island. I actually did four summers there to help pay for my college. Terry Erwin, Curator of Coleoptera, Smithsonian Institution, 2004. You built atomic submarines to pay for college? I was working in the atomic reactor room of the Polaris missile [USS] George Washington submarine. My job was to carry buckets of asbestos mud, so they put it on the preformed stuff, then they would wrap it with a fiberglass cloth. Anyhow, I was waiting for my call. I was just sitting there in the lower level and I leaned up and it was all wet; on my arm was chewing tobacco where somebody above had gone “pitooey.” I looked at that and wiped it off and said this is not for me. [Laughs.] So, that was it. I was in junior college taking electives and because I had read a book by James Michener about Hawaii and the Polynesians and their teeth problems, I decided to become a dentist. So I took zoology and thought it was pretty cool. Then I was in a discussion with somebody and they said, “Do you want to spend your life like this?” [Mimics a dentist staring into a mouth.] Leaning over, putting a drill into somebody's mouth! Exactly. I just realized I really didn't want to do that, so I went to San Jose State. I had a favorite English professor in junior college, so I minored in English and majored in life science teaching. During that time, I had to take two life science classes, one of which was marine biology with Polly McMasters and the other was entomology from Gordon Edwards. Polly would get her class up at four o'clock in the morning and go over to Moss Landing and dig up polychaete worms. Frozen fingers and just…gawd! Then we would go back to San Jose and in the afternoon, Gordon Edwards would get out the butterfly nets, and we would go out to Allen Rock Park and collect insects in the warm sunshine. Didn't take me long to figure out what I wanted to do. [Laughs.] Definitely not a marine biologist? Definitely not. And also Gordon was just a really dynamic personality, just fantastic. He recruited maybe seven or eight students per year. I just switched to entomology and the interesting thing during that phase was my English classes were dragging me down. I was on probation with a D average and I aced Entomology 51. That was back in the “Pleistocene” when it was 51, not 101. Then I got A's the entire rest of my student career. It was because of Gordon and his professionalism as a professor and the fact that [when] you brought your insect collection and if there was a Musca domestica there, he would just salivate, “how great that's pinned; that's really a great specimen!” A student just jumps on all that kind of feedback. And that was it. It is usually one individual and it was Gordon Edwards for you. He was the one. Being an “A” student, did you have any challenges during graduate school? No, actually everybody wanted me to go to Berkeley. There were some great coleopterists there like E. Gorton Linsley. But I said as soon as I walk on campus, I'm going to be the carabid expert, so I've got to go I wrote to Carl in Sweden, who had just published his three of the of and So I wrote to and he said, you are working on and if you want to do that for your I'm not the You really go to George George [Laughs.] I wrote George and got back a he was on an sabbatical in He said, I'm going to be down for a but you just on up and find a to and I you the first with my He said just in with the of the So my and I at the and the opened the and had a and in her arm a [Laughs.] was this with a very with a in her said you were And so they the first and we got a to George me for the first then I got a for the next two I it in three What was the that a a of a year. [Laughs.] It did and that's actually a The idea was to finish off as soon as Then me a and I went from to of Comparative Then the coleopterist at the retired and they George who was there, you He said, I just had a student at Harvard and So they called me and I said, I want to I want to do a with Carl in said, do that so on when I had my first I was in Washington for two then I went to for a year. that, I had worked with three of the in the and that really was my and look at your career. What do you your significant to the of entomology? I this for one a in so that a to look at the and the second thing was a in me down from my built on some and and up with the 30 million But the is that that the of the That was a The of the was that called me and he was with the National where they to know species were in an of That was the And I said, that about just I had in the and I said, me some and me what I And so I went and all that with and I up with species per in He took that and that was so me put this in a for if we know this for one are there in the insects are Who but 13 and so that to the 30 and said, what if five What if And so Those have been and still The really interesting thing was that from just published a in where he had and years of with kinds of He up with a of and a of on all of And I did it on one and some and up with that's probably pretty know that there are probably over per in the Terry Erwin for insects in the I on the in The it been to I it just As long as we are on this of you had species per your in You have also 17 in the you a for My is species per and per in the There are 17 and kinds of the So that's my the You are not going to a out there and be [Laughs.] My this morning the was that the way we things the to off the that's the I to get So what if I of the because they got then the 30 million would have been You have had a career but study and that the What got you into the high up in a we just back to Gordon Edwards was the coleopterist and he had a very collection and he I with with three of my who are all and they were very I really So I Gordon if I have He said, Carl had just published three on and I have been at National Park and the and I have you So, that's I got into I left for Sweden, Karl was the the and he said, me some proposal about what you are going to do when you So I wrote a proposal to do the of because I had a that I had as a I Paul Hurd had over as and he out that there was some money to in and so he got my crossed out California and wrote in So I for seven years, working and going back and to on and that is I got in the As I said, when things down and I saw these carabid on the I said that's I have got to collect the of the But it of went out of the from into biodiversity because of the and then that went into and so and the just because of that first It was like a just And the that I've been working on for a of years, which is the which is out to be a of things in the but there are just over species of which by and in the from all my and all my I have over species. So that I've got like species that And you the we what was up we know the average of a is So you of the you the the the the species of That been the of your I three off the and me some to you is a on is this was a very species. So we and very [Laughs.] for for which is so all of my his and get a if they in a where there is a so the in my the is the of the and the going down. Okay. was in so they are the the of Earth, the of the So all of have to have to do with is a of a is just But her was you know I to at the with He always that he would me to he But he me her is So is the species and I that into of the and that was in to the of the You have the some all of did a Smithsonian two years My J. and I went into the of like a kind of and is the So I in first and we are a then J. in and we there for a and some species after you one after a I said, of after my professor and who have any I said, I did and I had this one species of that had this so I it after That was the one and then he the of [Laughs.] Then said, out this with from the of the of My students had an of and it out to and he for of [Laughs.] Anyhow, that is the one I've after a and had to do with What is your in thing that you or you the greatest the I'm the coleopterist on the Smithsonian I have four in Coleoptera and one of is a for their is new of and then is the So I have all other in my and to of have been So they and my research and the collection manager for Coleoptera are in of million and of that, but then when you it down to my with we have a over one million carabid beetles. So my in my career is to that collection just as as new species as new but maybe not but in and it is great to go in and of I actually with the I and get but then I'm a of of the going to be three are the is I'm on and species of just over from the So the idea is that's one I'm working is the that is the other which is to get the collection in That is what I the when the to and for somebody to there, probably like working in a It the of the are and and My for the seven is all we That me to the year, and if I want I have to out of my a three years we get an is not What we have to do is take back to then they Anyhow, is all a but just the fact is that we have the in the National probably more but really not very You have to go into the and look in and like So in that it is a great to The is that we go to for I've been to actually get of money where I do a and to do it year, and I just have to and after after to do So that of the Smithsonian really a to What is a favorite of your I was the in I decided to do the first on carabidology and it up for three a with of the and over, and I the State Department to some of from the from the it was really to get out had more than a in carabidology and was at was about on the of It was just really a dynamic I was living in an at that and and a of my from were on the living room You it was just really an excellent I had a of good after that, but I that was a to the What do you will be the or the of your a good I'm that as we get the rest of the and the from this year, get that all in so that we have a of going then I down these like the species per in or or like That will up to the fact that, we have 30 or million species or a more on the but we are off a million at a So I just me a you or of things do you find in a year, or have you in over all of your over all the Okay. the thing to do is to the and then the the to that So that you a and just the of that or in this thing where we are of the we wanted actually a of the entire and what the of the building and the of the by and so that over just up three years to when they were building the then the up and the have about million from when you on the up into the an average of about on a that is three by three million have for and we have idea species on that but as a of years of at some at some we know species there are and the of that with all the published that over a species in one of in the a species of insects and their and the Carl the in that to the So that figure you just have to to the and that's what in a you just go out and one for you get about on the of next have three species. It just on the of the and all kinds of questions like that, but the thing for this the was that the be because of had with put and the had to be on of the so for after years, there was or on the from that all the was gone in three I with five species of in the at the of three years there were that was was from the was this This is the of the and the there were two million a of the they have in their some of their they have very they have and they go off for to a with a the they in they had and they to on and this is so back and they wiped out the or the as we for one to two back from the on The good thing years of were a to go and the actually had two me on the didn't or were on to an So years my had in and I to go and out this to the back of my I was my students to and up and like an I followed the two and the was going on I up with and they had idea to on the that were years And I had two species back in my so So the are back into the I want to take you back to the million you What is one of the things that you your nearly years of in the of the very interesting things about these that on average per is you out the and at the the and which is what we did for that we went of the all were So the of is where you But the next thing that is really interesting is you get and of that you just these things to in with their and the and just But for the very interesting and I this to the at of I've this to and I to put it in but if the would get off their and there would be more than there are You because a and have of I a But what I wanted to about that when you look under the at this biodiversity that's in the the thing are the just fantastic. And but if I had to do it over I have been a [Laughs.] that the entomological this that you are about to learn to out the when you actually get one of these and get in a under the to the of and species and all that kind of that's in the that's actually when you out there and this species per that's the the 17 and in 17 of and of have of within so my 30 million estimate is so that just to really out So, your new to I get you to me a No, [Laughs.] just to but the thing I'm on the and at but then the are going into a out that actually that maybe five or six species within that species. And so that my more diverse than just what you with your and so that me to because they are just with are in a So, You spent in the over a of you a or The first I was in the was so that's probably [Laughs.] It like than You I've and all that kind of and been by by the a when you get and you know what it The first was on the back of my been more than So I that thing and it and I who was with and they looked all over and there was one on my and they that so I didn't have any I was just and and then it but they are so I didn't it and it was That for about an and by then after the it to a like a and the kind of for a of and then You you that the like you had been a The second was in this on the and the had out and they were in the and they wanted me to over I was just and not but was next to a at the of a and one went out on my arm I the and it me in the Being on any of the fingers is the thing I we have more in a what they are actually putting in That more than I probably I know in my I up and in and they were me and what the I'm and I'm and and my I what it was because I had a So are two of my What is the thing in the The thing is actually a or a A down pretty and if under it and get on the it. A it a and you the you look and if you just one and it you. you you know where it is down and it just you. the that down that are more in I was taking down my for up the and I was it out and a about that a with his the of a and when they they kind of have a thing on and it down and went the to his didn't my but the went my a and then the in my and in the my It was a long so I'm of the and all my are kind of a until they actually what it had me in the be I got back I my also was but on my It was so it just took out my So that is the in years that I have been in the that to a you have a favorite insect It to be a My and is from and the Terry and actually it was Terry but is actually an that in but the was so that it had to have a and what a Anyhow, is my actually a very with a from and with a with so and this and which it probably with but we know about it. species are and they have these really so then like What do you to be your or do you want to I maybe by what my students do. I've my students in a good way and they go on to do stuff, then the just So that's George he had Ph.D. not just in but in other as and of have gone on like and and at the California of So you go back to George and to you have and you go back from to and so this all the way from the great down George and his students and what like to do is to that going with my student, from and I I have that when I your I've in the for years of my life with the all put so for years I [Laughs.] So that's a And are my as as I have any not going I go a of you My is and is a than me and my if I'm or [Laughs.] an that in the high So up at to in her at the very more than I've been with her a of when there is for my so I just have her me and me about it. the for my it down where and hot and So we do then back to about which is to What is the The is in we back to the and Terry, I greatly your in my it was and The Macallan 18 single malt I you at an you always have a of you. of are The students you I said, all my students want me for 30 And I'm to George L. for the and Terry Erwin for of